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12/02/2005: "ESR doesn't grok linux, abdicates all OSI board responsibilities"
In reference to Eric Raymond's confusion on embedded linux:
So, LinkSys (formerly independent, now a tentacle of Cisco) has brought the Linux version of their WRT54GL wireless router back to life. We'd previously heard that Version 5 of the box would run proprietary VxWorks firmware. But according to this story over at LinuxDevices.com,
> LinkSys is shipping a Linux-based WRT54GL model that it says it
> created specially for Linux hobbyists, hackers, and
> aficianados[sic]. The L version is identical to the "series 4ç
> WRT54G units that Linux hobbyists have long enjoyed hacking,
> according to the company. [Š
Here's the key 'graf:
> VxWorks allowed the company to halve the amounts of Flash and RAM
> in the device, while retaining similar functionality. Apparently,
> reducing memory-related BOM (bill-of-materials) costs more than
> offset the costs of licensing a proprietary OS
You know, to me that sounds like a challenge. Personally, I have no firmware-hacking or cross-development skills;
Eric, I thought you were the ur-hacker, the uber-man with mad linux skills. Yet here you openly admit that you don't understand what's going on with linux next to the hardware, and you can't manage to run a cross-compiler.
Here's Embedded linux from scratch, in 40 minutes. Here are some slightly longer training courses. All free and online. They're licensed under "Creative Commons", and I know you hate that shit, let us know if thats why you haven't bothered.
OK, enough of that, I do have these skills, but they're not needed. The rtl8181 project (on sourceforge) has source for a 2MB version of linux running an 802.11 AP. (There is new code released under the GPL for the rtl8186 "11g" AP-on-a-chip, too.)
The nice thing is that both the rtl818x and the Broadcom BCM4712LKFB are based on a 'mips4c' core, basically a MIPS32 CPU with the associated "mips standard" MMU. Therefore, with small exceptions of code side due to differences in the populated board (say, the ethernet chip) or software functions, and trivial differences for the kernel (CPUID) and bootloader, the same code could run on either part.
So, its entirely possible with slight twists to get a 2MB flash/8MB ram footprint linux codebase for this machine, but this leaves precious little memory and flash for anything "extra", which is what the guys at OpenWRT (etc) love to do.
i.e. its pointless.
Lets look at it another way. SDRAM costs < $0.25/MB, and flash costs slightly < $1.00/MP. If we save 8MB of ram and 2MB of flash thats 2 * $1.00 + 8 * $0.25, or $4.00. In the quantity Broadcom or Linksys buys they'll pay less than $2.00 to 'license' vxworks.
So yes, its still cheaper. Doesn't that just suck?
Why yes, it does suck. It sucks for Wind River, who really wanted a much bigger slice of the pie. They think it sucks to only get $2. Imagine, if they got $3 then their revenue would go up 50%. They used to charge as much as 20% of the silicon BOM. Linux fucked their shit up.
Spend those extra $4.00 on BOM (which turn into $12 on the shelf using the typical 3:1 -- street:BOM rule), and you get all the magic that linux has brough to projects like OpenWRT. (I can't endorse SVEAsoft, because they violate the GPL all to hell and back.)
On the other hand, the much-maligned Atheros has recently switched from vxworks *to* linux as their AP code base, at the bequest of their ODMs. Thats right, Atheros ships linux, in volume, while Broadcom, who had all the "wireless hackers" creaming their pants, screwed the pooch (instead), and all anyone can find to complain about is the "binary HAL" (which only keeps you from violating FCC rules, (and similar rules in other countries, btw.))
(Netgate has source licenses to both the Broadcom and Atheros software. (vxworks and linux, thank you.) So I can say with some certainty what the "binary blobs" contain, and what they don't.)
my interests lie in other directions.
You have forgotten the face of your father.
But some eager band of Linux hackers out there should strip Linux down far enough that it can fit in the reduced footprint, just to prove it can be done and undercut the idea that proprietary firmware is /ever/ a good idea. And I have no doubt it can be done; heck, we've made Linux run on a Z80!
*cough* *cough>8* horseshit *cough* *cough* "we"?? *cough* *choke* (sputter) *cough* (wheeze)
Eric, show me linux running to a hash prompt on a Z80 anytime in the next six months, and I'll send you this crisp new US $20.00 bill. You have witnesses.
MINIX, XENIX and XINU (Undue Perversity... Rah!) don't count. You said "Linux" (and I replied "horseshit").
Oh yeah, you gotta use a real Z80, too. 2.5MHz (I'll allow up to 20MHz) clock, six 8-bit general purpose registers, 16-bit PC, 16-bit memory bus. Thats right, you get a whopping 64KB (not MB, KB) of (super slow) ram in which to run linux and a copy of /bin/sh as PID 1.
(I maintain the Linksys Blue Box Router HOWTO. There might be a new version, reflecting the fact that Cisco has dropped its lawsuit against Michael Flynn, up on the LDP site by the time you read this.)
(now quoting the "Linksys Blue Box Router HOWTO"):
On 28 July 2005, Cisco initiated a lawsuit against Michael Flynn, who was not and had never been a Cisco employee, over his disclosure of long-standing, uncorrected flaws in Cisco router software. Cisco has made clear that it prefers shooting the messenger to fixing its software. I am accordingly recommending that all Cisco equipment - including Linksys routers - be boycotted until the company drops its lawsuit, compensates Mr Lynn for any costs incurred, and publicly apologizes for its sleazy, destructive, and unethical behavior.
Eric, its Lynn, not Flynn, and you may consider this my formal request that you fix your website. I'll point out that I've asked for other corrections before, and you've ignored my requests. Others have asked that you correct what you've said about them, and you've ignored that too, so I'm not hopeful.
Here are some other inaccuracies you might consider retracting and correcting:
Latest revision of the "Linksys Bule Box Router HOWTO":
Revision 2.1 2005-07-28 Revised by: esr
Added the suggestion that Cisco be boycotted over the Lynn firing.
Lynn wasn't fired, he quit
Cisco, ISS, Lynn and "Blackhat" settled on the day you suggested a boycott, but you don't point that out
Lynn now works for Juniper, but you don't point that out.
And finally, you might want to read the words from Michael's mouth.
Are you aware that Cisco was one of Cygnus' first big customers? That they *still use* free software (gcc) to build the (proprietary) software for their routers?
http://news.com.com/Famed+open-source+compiler+upgraded/2100-1001_3-268658.html says:
Nortel was Cygnus' first major customer, in 1990. Intel joined later that year. Ericsson arrived in 1991, and Cisco Systems and Alcatel signed on in 1992, ...
(Juniper uses gcc as well, but I digress.)
There was a press release end of January 2005 from OSI that stated, "Raymond, under the title President Emeritus, will continue to do outreach and ambassadorial work for OSI."
Since all Free Software is Open Source (though the converse is not true), aren't you shirking your role as ambassador by calling for the boycott and spreading lies about Cisco having "fired" Lynn?
So there we have it. You don't understand the technical aspects of linux and you don't understand the requirements of your position with OSI. What is it, *exactly* that you do, other than pontificate?
